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Guest
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 |  Subject: Heavy Metal Conjecture  Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:18 pm | |
| Do you think that if Jason Newsted didn't join Metallica that Flotsam & Jetsam could have produced music equal to the output of Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, and Slayer at the time? If so, would we have had a "Big 5" thus creating an uneven balance in the metal world, causing Kirk Hammett to return to Exodus for unforseen reasons, bumping up Exodus' musical output to the status of the "Big 4", restoring balance by creating a "Big 6" in thrash?
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ultmetal
Administrator
Joined : 04 Jan 2007
Posts : 8193
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:43 pm | |
| I often wonder if Elektra didn't sign Flotsam & Jetsam just to squash them and keep them from being a competitor with Metallica. They signed the band then did NOTHING to promote "No Place for Disgrace", quickly relegating it to the discount/cut-out bins.
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:49 pm | |
| | The production is terrible on No Place, so that lends creedence to that theory about Elektra. Flotsam were so good, it's a true shame. |
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MetalGuy71
Metal is in my blood
Age : 37
Joined : 01 Feb 2007
Posts : 4971
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:53 pm | |
| | Bad band name. It may sound silly, but I think a bad name can have an effect as well. |
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MetalH
Metal graduate
Age : 22
Joined : 22 Jan 2007
Posts : 414
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:56 pm | |
| I don't know.... Is Jason Newsted so good that he would have given F&J mainstream success like MetallicA?
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ultmetal
Administrator
Joined : 04 Jan 2007
Posts : 8193
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:11 pm | |
| | MetalH wrote: | | I don't know.... Is Jason Newsted so good that he would have given F&J mainstream success like MetallicA? |
Like the title says, it's conjecture. Who knows. Metallica never really gave Newsted the chance to do much creatively and Flotsam never saw their true potential with Newsted behind he healm. The one album he recorded with them is a classic IMO. The follow-up still had some of Newsted's songwriting on them and were great as well.
However, great songwriting and a big record label don't automatically equal success. Overkill were on Atlantic Records and never saw the success of Metallica or Anthrax. Armored Saint were phenomenal musicians, had a great show, excellent songs, the look, big label backing, yet never saw mainstream success. It's really hard to say "what could have been."
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mc666
Metal is in my blood
Age : 30
Joined : 21 Jan 2007
Posts : 4674
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:40 pm | |
| what if Kerry King had actually joined Megadeth back in the day? would Slayer have been as evil? or if Dimebag had joined Megadeth, would Dave Mustaine still be a drunk?
it's all in the past. i don't even care.
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Temple of Blood
Heart of Metal
Age : 33
Joined : 29 Mar 2007
Posts : 1138
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:00 pm | |
| I think FLOTS's music is already equal to ANTHRAX even without Newsted.
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Temple of Blood
Heart of Metal
Age : 33
Joined : 29 Mar 2007
Posts : 1138
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:02 pm | |
| | MetalGuy71 wrote: | | Bad band name. It may sound silly, but I think a bad name can have an effect as well. |
Good point.
I think half of MAIDEN's popularity, for example, was due to just their album covers and mascot.
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TEMPLE OF BLOOD - Intense PowerThrash with Biblical lyrics
http://www.templeofblood.net
http://www.myspace.com/templeofblood
New Album "Overlord" now available! Includes FORBIDDEN cover song! |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:06 pm | |
| | mc666 wrote: | what if Kerry King had actually joined Megadeth back in the day? would Slayer have been as evil? or if Dimebag had joined Megadeth, would Dave Mustaine still be a drunk?
it's all in the past. i don't even care. |
Probably. And what if David Ellefson had joined Metallica that one time? |
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Stender
Heart of Metal
Age : 18
Joined : 26 Jan 2008
Posts : 1595
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:29 pm | |
| | I dont really think so. |
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Phoenix Reign Drummer
Heart of Metal
Age : 29
Joined : 31 Aug 2007
Posts : 1850
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:03 pm | |
| | I dont think Flotsam would have been any different if Jason was still in the band. They are a great band but they just dont have that "IT" factor. They dont have a catchy name, a mascot or anything that someone can just look at and say thats Flotsam. |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:07 pm | |
| | Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote: | | I dont think Flotsam would have been any different if Jason was still in the band. They are a great band but they just dont have that "IT" factor. They dont have a catchy name, a mascot or anything that someone can just look at and say thats Flotsam. |
I think some of that could have been created for them if they had support from a major record label. Or maybe not, what the hell do I know? |
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Phoenix Reign Drummer
Heart of Metal
Age : 29
Joined : 31 Aug 2007
Posts : 1850
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:08 pm | |
| | Now heres a question that has always been wondered since the "Black Album" what if Cliff Burton never died? Would Metallica still sound somewhat like they did when he was in the band or wouldve they still went the same path? |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:09 pm | |
| | I think Cliff would have left anyway. He would have been just another member to railroad like James and Lars did Kirk. |
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Phoenix Reign Drummer
Heart of Metal
Age : 29
Joined : 31 Aug 2007
Posts : 1850
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:09 pm | |
| | spectrefate wrote: | | Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote: | | I dont think Flotsam would have been any different if Jason was still in the band. They are a great band but they just dont have that "IT" factor. They dont have a catchy name, a mascot or anything that someone can just look at and say thats Flotsam. |
I think some of that could have been created for them if they had support from a major record label. Or maybe not, what the hell do I know? |
I doubt it. What much can you do with a name like Flotsam and Jetsam.? |
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Phoenix Reign Drummer
Heart of Metal
Age : 29
Joined : 31 Aug 2007
Posts : 1850
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:12 pm | |
| | spectrefate wrote: | | I think Cliff would have left anyway. He would have been just another member to railroad like James and Lars did Kirk. |
lol you think so? I dunno they seemed to be a pretty close "family orientated" band back then. I think it was when they started doing "Justice" they started the whole its either James or Lars' way. |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:16 pm | |
| | Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote: |
lol you think so? I dunno they seemed to be a pretty close "family orientated" band back then. I think it was when they started doing "Justice" they started the whole its either James or Lars' way. |
I agree. I think James and Lars would talk with Cliff and say "We want to do somthing more appealing to the masses", and Cliff would have left. I can't see that the Black Album would have been made with Cliff still in the band. |
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MetalGuy71
Metal is in my blood
Age : 37
Joined : 01 Feb 2007
Posts : 4971
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:23 pm | |
| | Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote: | | Now heres a question that has always been wondered since the "Black Album" what if Cliff Burton never died? Would Metallica still sound somewhat like they did when he was in the band or wouldve they still went the same path? |
Cliff and Lars would have butted heads about the direction of the band until Cliff would eventually tell the little troll to f*ck off, while Kirk sat quietly and watched. I've always kinda thought of James as a big lunk-head and he would have been Cliff's b*tch, pretty much doing whatever Cliff told him to do. The 2 of them would then have pushed Lars out of the band and Kirk would remain silent as always. This "bizzarro" version of Metallica, with Cliff leading the way, would have continued to make the same style of music, perhaps pushing further into harder, faster, punkier, thrashier territory, not caring about trends or popularity. And Kirk would remain silent as always.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. |
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Phoenix Reign Drummer
Heart of Metal
Age : 29
Joined : 31 Aug 2007
Posts : 1850
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:42 pm | |
| | spectrefate wrote: | | Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote: |
lol you think so? I dunno they seemed to be a pretty close "family orientated" band back then. I think it was when they started doing "Justice" they started the whole its either James or Lars' way. |
I agree. I think James and Lars would talk with Cliff and say "We want to do somthing more appealing to the masses", and Cliff would have left. I can't see that the Black Album would have been made with Cliff still in the band. |
I loved the Black Album. I think it would have still been done but just not in the mainstream way that it was. James even said he wrote Enter Sandman way back when Cliff was still around. I dont think it was mostly Metallicas idea to put out the albums that they did with Bob Rock. I think he got too friendly with the band and persuaded them way too much to write the music that they did. I guess we will never know though.... |
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ultmetal
Administrator
Joined : 04 Jan 2007
Posts : 8193
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:01 pm | |
| | Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote: | | I don't think Flotsam would have been any different if Jason was still in the band. They are a great band but they just dont have that "IT" factor. They dont have a catchy name, a mascot or anything that someone can just look at and say thats Flotsam. |
Jason was the band's main songwriter before leaving, so he had a major hand in how the band sounded on the first two albums. If he would have remained in the band, of course things could have been different.
As for the "catchy name" and "mascot", well, Aerosmith are one of the most popular hard rock bands in the world. They never had a catchy name or mascot. Anthrax never had a mascot and hardly had an image any different than Flots, unless you count the silly Bermudas shorts things they wore in the mid-80's.
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MetalGuy71
Metal is in my blood
Age : 37
Joined : 01 Feb 2007
Posts : 4971
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:29 pm | |
| | Quote: | | As for the "catchy name" and "mascot", well, Aerosmith are one of the most popular hard rock bands in the world. They never had a catchy name or mascot. Anthrax never had a mascot and hardly had an image any different than Flots, unless you count the silly Bermudas shorts things they wore in the mid-80's. |
Aerosmith has a cool logo and Anthrax had the "Not" man for a mascot there for awhile. |
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Olafsto
Metal master
Age : 40
Joined : 17 Feb 2007
Posts : 932
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:28 pm | |
| | MetalGuy71 wrote: | | Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote: | | Now heres a question that has always been wondered since the "Black Album" what if Cliff Burton never died? Would Metallica still sound somewhat like they did when he was in the band or wouldve they still went the same path? |
Cliff and Lars would have butted heads about the direction of the band until Cliff would eventually tell the little troll to f*ck off, while Kirk sat quietly and watched. I've always kinda thought of James as a big lunk-head and he would have been Cliff's b*tch, pretty much doing whatever Cliff told him to do. The 2 of them would then have pushed Lars out of the band and Kirk would remain silent as always. This "bizzarro" version of Metallica, with Cliff leading the way, would have continued to make the same style of music, perhaps pushing further into harder, faster, punkier, thrashier territory, not caring about trends or popularity. And Kirk would remain silent as always.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. |
Man, your theory sounds like a good dream.
I would love to hear some bizzarro Metallica, instead of todays primadonna Metallica..
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Todd Jaymz
Metal graduate
Age : 39
Joined : 24 Apr 2007
Posts : 323
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:46 pm | |
| | I saw Flotz several times during the Cuatro tour, at most of the shows we hung out afterwards. Sooooo I was talking with Kelly Smith one night about Jason and he said "He was more trouble that he was worth". I really liked Jason with Metallica in the earlier years. Excellent player imo, so who knows what may have been. I do think over all Flotz has had better music than Metallica since the release of the Black album-TJ |
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the sentinel
Metal is in my blood
Age : 34
Joined : 31 Jul 2007
Posts : 2980
| | Subject: Re: Heavy Metal Conjecture Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:40 pm | |
| I honestly don't know enough about F&J to offer much insight (I only have 2 albums by them in my collection), but I do know that when different people come and go like in any profession, things are subject to change. Great conjecture, Spec. It got me thinking:
What if... Rick Allen didn't lose an arm?
What if... Eddie Vanhalen never played the synthesizer on 1984?
What if... DLR never left Vanhalen?
What if... Paul Di Anno stayed with Maiden?
What if... Pearl Jam and Nirvana never got signed?
What if... St. Anger was a commercial and critical success?
What if... Bon Jovi and Poison never made it as big as they did?
- Would DL still sound like they did on the first 3 albums?
- Did Eddie make it acceptable for big name rock stars to play keyboards?
- Is this why they changed?
- There might not have ever been a Beast or Piece album.
- Good time Rock and Roll might have lived on another decade.
- People would be saying that Metallica "returned to thier roots"
- Glam metal might not be term at all.
I am not particularly angered over any of these things nor am I looking to start arguments. Just some stuff that goes through my mind when I can't sleep or am driving home from work late at night. Peace. |
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