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James B.
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PostSubject: Question for downloaders   Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:03 pm

A guy I work with is an old KISS fan and is as anxious about the new Ace Frehley cd as I am. We both pre-ordered. He came to my camper last night with a laptop and asked me if I wanted to hear the new Ace music. He said he downloaded it. I asked if it came from Ace's sight or the record company and he said, "nope". Just some share site or something. I said he stole it and he got all indignant saying, "I pre-ordered it so they got my money and it's just like if I made my own digital copy anyways" I explained that it isn't cause of the source the copy was made from. Am I being a jerk or is his way of thinking normal on the subject.

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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:21 pm

That's such a grey area. If I have pre-ordered something and have the chance to hear it a couple weeks early I see no problem with it. That may not technically be "legal" but I don't see it as stealing as I've already paid the band for a copy. If you download a leaked copy of the album and then don't actually pay for it when it becomes available, that's stealing.


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James B.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:58 pm

To me it's like going online and watching a movie that is still out at theaters and justifying it cause you were gonna buy the dvd when it came out or see it at the theater next Thursday.

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Witchfinder
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:31 pm

I can tell you that it is illegal. Even if you own a copy of the album and you download a copy of it from a torrent it's still illegal. You only have a license to the copy you bought. Even though the download is of the same album, it's considered a completely different product. I sincerely doubt you would ever be prosecuted for it, but as a matter of law, it is illegal.
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Boris2008
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:21 pm

I've done it. As long as the band has got paid for the music I have enjoyed then I don't see the biggie.

I understand the legal argument but as far as crimes go, I'm sure the bands would rather get paid than just have me listen on Bandcamp/Spotify/YouTube which I can do, perfectly legally for free, but I genuinely believe in supporting the arts and realise that people have to eat.
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mc666
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:02 pm

They have his money, he has their product. End of story as far as I'm concerned. You prefer to wait...kudos to you. Calling him a thief when he paid for it is pretty low.

As for the laws... It's no secret that laws everywhere have been slow to catch up to the digital age. It may be technically illegal now, but will/should it always be?

James B. wrote:
To me it's like going online and watching a movie that is still out at theaters and justifying it cause you were gonna buy the dvd when it came out or see it at the theater next Thursday.

Yeah, that's not a fair comparison to the situation.

If you've already paid for a ticket & saw the movie in the theater, or you pre-ordered the dvd... then to me, that's a huge difference. They already have your money.

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mc666
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:03 pm

Just my opinion of course.

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brokentulsa
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:32 am

Just curious...it seems like before the digital age recording a song or album off the radio onto a cassette or if your old enough an 8 track or having a buddy make you a cassette copy wasn't really a big deal and was very commonplace (some radio stations even told you when to Q up and press record)...Most people didn't seem to think about it one way or another..then comes the digital age and the napster/metallica event and everything changed... What does everyone think about realplayers software that allows you to record from the internet (youtube) and then transfer it to mp3 format and burn a CD?
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Boris2008
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:55 am

Home taping was considered a big deal in the early '80s and the same line about how it was destroying the music industry was trotted out.



although Venom had their own version



I believe in paying for what you get, if you want music you should pay the people who make it, but there is nothing wrong with at least hearing a record before you fork over hard earned cash .
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Runicen
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:07 pm

I'll second everyone on the "pay for the music you enjoy" thought.

Downloading is a complicated beast though. If torrent sites didn't exist, how many BADLY out of print albums would just be lost to anyone who didn't have $250 to spend on a crap vinyl copy. As it stands, I tend to use it for one of two reasons:

1.) To check out a new band - which usually follows the pattern of download discography, lose my mind, empty my bank account buying all of their stuff.

-or-

2.) To finally get to hear a copy of a CD that is brutally expensive and not available for legitimate download anywhere.

In both cases, there's no money being LOST by anyone for my enjoyment. In fact, in point 1, it's a "try before you buy," which I invariably do if I like what I hear. Granted, I know not everyone is that up on actually paying for the stuff after the fact, but simply having a download on your hard drive that you never listen to is not the same as walking to a store and stealing a physical product that has tangible value and a cost to produce in my mind - so the weekend warriors to just download crap they never listen to aren't really thieving either. That'd be like calling anyone with ears a "radio listener" because they have the means to hear it.

Ditto with point 2. If I paid for the product, the band wouldn't see a dime. Some collector would bank on a prior investment (which isn't bad either, but doesn't really help the ethics case here), but that's about it.

Now, on the matter of technicality, yeah - it's all illegal. Personally, I'd like to see these labels get with the times and do a Bandcamp type thing where, for a reasonable price, you can download anything off of their label in either FLAC, ALAC or MP3 and then everyone would be happy and people like me wouldn't need to fart around with torrents because it would ALL be available. Bit of a tangent, but worth dreaming out loud...

For the original scenario, I don't even think it's worth questioning if the guy already pre-ordered. I've heard horror stories from earlier in the downloading culture of bands getting screwed because everyone downloaded their album instead of getting it the day or week of release, which hurt chart position, promotion and royalties accordingly, but I'm not sure how many bands are feeling that particular pinch these days anyway. Hell, most bands can't get their CDs stocked in Walmart or Best Buy, which are about the last game standing for readily available places to buy music.

So, more complicated than all that, but if you've already paid the band, who cares if you download what you're waiting on a physical copy of? Again, I'll lean on Bandcamp. Buy a physical release from them and you already have a digital copy for immediate download/streaming. It doesn't get better than that.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to cash this check from Bandcamp for endorsing their product. Laughing very hard
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chewie
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:03 pm

I have a different scenario(this has happened a few times) where I buy the LP and try to use the Download Card... and it doesn't work or the download stops in the middle of downloading. So I have HAD to go and find a download "out there" for it. I bought the album and was promised a legal download, but had to go elsewhere for it. What then?

This has happened with a couple of Sword and all three Chris Robinson Brotherhood(the download company he uses sucks! I emailed them to get a new code and that download stopped in the middle!) LPs.

More bands should use the Bandcamp model!
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chewie
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:06 pm

Boris2008 wrote:
Home taping was considered a big deal in the early '80s and the same line about how it was destroying the music industry was trotted out.




I believe in paying for what you get, if you want music you should pay the people who make it, but there is nothing wrong with at least hearing a record before you fork over hard earned cash .


MSG - One Night at Budokan has those on the inner record sleeves.


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James B.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:24 pm

mc666 wrote:
They have his money, he has their product. End of story as far as I'm concerned. You prefer to wait...kudos to you. Calling him a thief when he paid for it is pretty low.

He paid for the cd that hasn't arrived yet. The download was illegal and free. (and unavailable in the U.S)Guess it's just a perspective thing ? He called me an "@$$hole" and we had a cold brew afterwards. I put on some Rory Gallagher and called it good.

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Witchfinder
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:26 pm

Even if you have a legal download code and it doesn't work - and then you download the same album from a torrent - you are breaking the law. The torrent you downloaded is a separate product from the legal download you were trying to access. Your usage license only applies to the download you were given and the vinyl record.

Now, a band would probably never prosecute you because they don't have the resources and most wouldn't care one bit. It's possible, but extremely unlikely that a label would prosecute you. The label would have the resources to sue you, but the vast majority of the small labels have no interest in it.
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Witchfinder
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:32 pm

Home taping and illegal downloading aren't really analogous. Home taping made an inferior copy of the album and was done by a tiny fraction of the public. Downloading creates a perfectly identical copy of the album and is done by millions of people constantly.

I should state that I think that technology has far outstripped intellectual property law and thus these seemingly insane results occur. There needs to be a change in the law, but I don't envision that happening any time soon.
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Runicen
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:38 pm

Witchfinder wrote:
Home taping and illegal downloading aren't really analogous. Home taping made an inferior copy of the album and was done by a tiny fraction of the public. Downloading creates a perfectly identical copy of the album and is done by millions of people constantly.

I should state that I think that technology has far outstripped intellectual property law and thus these seemingly insane results occur. There needs to be a change in the law, but I don't envision that happening any time soon.

Sadly, I think you're right on all counts.

I don't dig the people who say "copyright is over," because how the hell else is a musician, artist or writer supposed to make a living if they can't have sole rights to reproduce their stuff? That said, the present copyright laws have no idea how to handle something intangible that can be copied infinitely without cost.

Actually, that's probably why Kickstarter and the like appeal to me so much. You're asking for help to produce your product from the people who are going to enjoy it - because everyone knows that once it's "out there," it stays out there and there's not a lot you can do to control that. Seems like a win-win, even if nobody is going to become fabulously wealthy from it.
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Shawn Of Fire
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:39 pm

James B. wrote:
A guy I work with is an old KISS fan and is as anxious about the new Ace Frehley cd as I am. We both pre-ordered. He came to my camper last night with a laptop and asked me if I wanted to hear the new Ace music. He said he downloaded it. I asked if it came from Ace's sight or the record company and he said, "nope". Just some share site or something. I said he stole it and he got all indignant saying, "I pre-ordered it so they got my money and it's just like if I made my own digital copy anyways" I explained that it isn't cause of the source the copy was made from. Am I being a jerk or is his way of thinking normal on the subject.


I'll chime in by saying what he does is none of your business and not your problem. Very Happy
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Eyesore
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:01 pm

Of course it's illegal, no question. That aside, is it wrong, per se, to download something you've invested in elsewhere? I don't know. I really only think there's an argument if he downloaded it from a torrent site, because at that point he's also sharing it or parts of it (seeding), if just briefly.

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Boris2008
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:04 pm

Shawn Of Fire wrote:
James B. wrote:
A guy I work with is an old KISS fan and is as anxious about the new Ace Frehley cd as I am. We both pre-ordered. He came to my camper last night with a laptop and asked me if I wanted to hear the new Ace music. He said he downloaded it. I asked if it came from Ace's sight or the record company and he said, "nope". Just some share site or something. I said he stole it and he got all indignant saying, "I pre-ordered it so they got my money and it's just like if I made my own digital copy anyways" I explained that it isn't cause of the source the copy was made from. Am I being a jerk or is his way of thinking normal on the subject.


I'll chime in by saying what he does is none of your business and not your problem. Very Happy

But if he gets arrested and sent to jail for his crime, it will be James' tax money that pays for it so technically.............. (a bit of a reach I know! Laughing)
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James B.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:02 am

Shawn Of Fire wrote:
James B. wrote:
A guy I work with is an old KISS fan and is as anxious about the new Ace Frehley cd as I am. We both pre-ordered. He came to my camper last night with a laptop and asked me if I wanted to hear the new Ace music. He said he downloaded it. I asked if it came from Ace's sight or the record company and he said, "nope". Just some share site or something. I said he stole it and he got all indignant saying, "I pre-ordered it so they got my money and it's just like if I made my own digital copy anyways" I explained that it isn't cause of the source the copy was made from. Am I being a jerk or is his way of thinking normal on the subject.


I'll chime in by saying what he does is none of your business and not your problem. Very Happy

I can see that perspective, but when they come to you and tell you what they did. It changes the paradigm of the conversation.

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Shawn Of Fire
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:21 am

James B. wrote:
Shawn Of Fire wrote:
James B. wrote:
A guy I work with is an old KISS fan and is as anxious about the new Ace Frehley cd as I am. We both pre-ordered. He came to my camper last night with a laptop and asked me if I wanted to hear the new Ace music. He said he downloaded it. I asked if it came from Ace's sight or the record company and he said, "nope". Just some share site or something. I said he stole it and he got all indignant saying, "I pre-ordered it so they got my money and it's just like if I made my own digital copy anyways" I explained that it isn't cause of the source the copy was made from. Am I being a jerk or is his way of thinking normal on the subject.


I'll chime in by saying what he does is none of your business and not your problem. Very Happy

I can see that perspective, but when they come to you and tell you what they did. It changes the paradigm of the conversation.

Not really, it's still your choice, completely on you, to react and comment or not.
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James B.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:09 pm

Shawn Of Fire wrote:
James B. wrote:
Shawn Of Fire wrote:
James B. wrote:
A guy I work with is an old KISS fan and is as anxious about the new Ace Frehley cd as I am. We both pre-ordered. He came to my camper last night with a laptop and asked me if I wanted to hear the new Ace music. He said he downloaded it. I asked if it came from Ace's sight or the record company and he said, "nope". Just some share site or something. I said he stole it and he got all indignant saying, "I pre-ordered it so they got my money and it's just like if I made my own digital copy anyways" I explained that it isn't cause of the source the copy was made from. Am I being a jerk or is his way of thinking normal on the subject.


I'll chime in by saying what he does is none of your business and not your problem. Very Happy

I can see that perspective, but when they come to you and tell you what they did. It changes the paradigm of the conversation.

Not really, it's still your choice, completely on you, to react and comment or not.

I'm sorry if being honest with a friend is construed by you as something I should not do. No big deal.

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MetalGuy71
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:17 pm

Seems kinda dodgy to me. Even if you paid for it, downloading it anyway from an illegal source after the fact just seems to encourage the practice of posting torrents and downloads to begin with.

Just this ass-hat's opinion. don\'t know

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Shawn Of Fire
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:40 pm

James B. wrote:
Shawn Of Fire wrote:
James B. wrote:
Shawn Of Fire wrote:
James B. wrote:
A guy I work with is an old KISS fan and is as anxious about the new Ace Frehley cd as I am. We both pre-ordered. He came to my camper last night with a laptop and asked me if I wanted to hear the new Ace music. He said he downloaded it. I asked if it came from Ace's sight or the record company and he said, "nope". Just some share site or something. I said he stole it and he got all indignant saying, "I pre-ordered it so they got my money and it's just like if I made my own digital copy anyways" I explained that it isn't cause of the source the copy was made from. Am I being a jerk or is his way of thinking normal on the subject.


I'll chime in by saying what he does is none of your business and not your problem. Very Happy

I can see that perspective, but when they come to you and tell you what they did. It changes the paradigm of the conversation.

Not really, it's still your choice, completely on you, to react and comment or not.

I'm sorry if being honest with a friend is construed by you as something I should not do. No big deal.

Be honest if they ask. If they don't ask your opinion, they don't want to know.
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exact33
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PostSubject: Re: Question for downloaders   Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:25 pm

S.D. wrote:
That's such a grey area. If I have pre-ordered something and have the chance to hear it a couple weeks early I see no problem with it. That may not technically be "legal" but I don't see it as stealing as I've already paid the band for a copy. If you download a leaked copy of the album and then don't actually pay for it when it becomes available, that's stealing.



my thoughts too. If you pay for it, I don't see any issue with having a digital copy.

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