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Thelemech
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PostSubject: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 2:20 pm

I have been a casual fan of Jazz for about the last 20 or so years. Love John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Thelonius Monk, Stan Getz, Glenn Miller and some others I am probably forgetting.

I have noticed that some of you - S.D. in particular have a deep knowledge of the genre.

Knowing what I like can any of you recommend some others I might enjoy??


Also maybe this could be a general thread for Jazz discussions and recommendations?!
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Runicen
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 2:33 pm

I'd never call myself an expert and my knowledge of the genre isn't that deep, but I have been known to spin a bit of jazz from time to time.

Ella Fitzgerald is an amazing talent top to bottom and I have infinite time for that voice.

Also, though I seem to recall he gets a bad rap for being a "mainstream" jazz guy, Dave Brubeck is worthy of a listen. The Time Out album, in particular, is great.
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chewie
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 5:04 pm

Jazz is such a deep pool............

S.D. turned me onto Jimmy Smith which resulted into checking out some of his players like Kenny Burrell and Stanley Turrentine. I've also been told that Quincy Jones music from his jazz days is some really good stuff.

Love Getz! He has a nice tone. Check out Getz meets Mulligan if have not already, on half of it they switch instruments.

You mentioned Miles Davis. Just about every member of his bands started bands of their own.
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Runicen
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 5:27 pm

Oh, I forgot Herbie Hancock. There's just about an album for any taste in his discography. He was also an early adopter of electronic sounds in jazz if I'm not mistaken.

I picked up this big "Complete" box set of his later work and there was a Japan-only album included called "Dedication" that is just friggin' brilliant. What would have been Side A was all solo piano pieces and Side B was this extended jazzy electronic piece that had a lot of traditional jazz playing on it, but with pulsing synths and sequenced bits under it. Very cool.
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 5:43 pm

chewie wrote:
Jazz is such a deep pool............

Yes, in fact it's more like an ocean.

It really has to be broken down a little more into bite-size chunks to gain traction on it.

I found it helpful to break it down into eras first, then from there break it down into record labels and certain stylistic movements. There are also probably more jazz subgenres than metal subgenres (believe it or not).

Pre-war jazz was primarily big-band, it was popular, commercial music aimed at airplay and dancing.

Post-war is where things really start to change.

Mid 40s to late 40s saw a few major changes. First the big bands started to fade away as artists realized the greater flexibility (and decreased cost) of small groups (primarily trio, quartet, quintet, sextet). Second was the beginning of bebop. Bebop was where jazz moved away from being commercial, mainstream music and began being "art music". Simple, danceable melodies were replaced by more focus on improvisation and stretching out.

Late 40s to early 50s saw the beginning of very separate sounds coming from the East Coast and the West Coast. East Coast jazz was "harder", West Coast jazz was more chamber-like in approach and generally featured more inspiration from European classical music, whereas the East Coast sounds still had a firm foot in the blues and gospel traditions.

Mid 50s is where the small group stuff really coalesced and came into its own. This is also the era that most people associate with what "jazz sounds like". You had "Cool jazz" on the West Coast featuring musicians like Stan Getz, Dave Brubeck, Phineas Newborn...while on the East Coast bebop gave way to "Hard Bop" which kicked into gear with Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers and the small groups of people like Horace Silver and Miles Davis. The difference between Bebop and Hard Bop is hard bop was more directly influenced by blues & gospel sounds (The Baptist Beat) and wasn't quite as focused on speed (bebop was basically the thrash metal of jazz).

Miles Davis basically needs to be considered on his own because of how many times he changed the direction of the music almost single-handedly.

The last couple years of the 50s and the first couple of the 60s saw the rise of Modal Jazz (really spear-headed by Miles Davis' albums Milestones and Kind Of Blue) which in turn would lead into the more experimental and avant-garde direction of both the "New Thing" and "Free Jazz".

The early to mid 60s ushered in more changes. You had artists like Ornette Coleman and Cecil Taylor which threw out the structure and boundaries and started experimenting with free improvisation (improv not tied to chord changes or melody). You also had "The Blue Note Sound" which is generally referred to as "Post Bop", this is a mixture of the late 50s hard bop sound with the revolutions of Modal Jazz and some of the spirit of free jazz mixed in. And the beginnings of "Boogaloo" and "Soul Jazz" which would color a lot of the late 60s. Also during this era you had some stylistic branches to world music with movements like Bossa Nova.

The late 60s showed jazz starting to incorporate some of the changes happening in the rock world. Some of the prominent movements during this era was "Soul Jazz", primarily Hammond Organ based groups usually featuring guitarists with an emphasis on the funky (greasy) and the beginnings of "Jazz Rock" with artists like Larry Coryell leading the way.

The late 60s also ushered in the use of more electronic instruments in jazz, again attributed to Miles Davis because of the use of electric piano, guitar and more rock beats on albums like Miles In The Sky, In A Silent Way and Bitches Brew.

The early 70s saw the advent of Fusion with artists like Mahavishnu Orchestra, Tony Williams' Lifetime, Weather Report, etc.

That's a very broad overlook at about 35 years of musical change, but it at least starts the thought process.
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Thelemech
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 6:01 pm

Thanks for all the responses so far Smile
Some new artists mentioned to check out. Extra thanks to you S.D. for your very informative post. Cheers!
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 6:14 pm

When I have time I'll post recommendations for some must-have albums from each of those stylistic periods.
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Thelemech
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 6:18 pm

S.D. wrote:
When I have time I'll post recommendations for some must-have albums from each of those stylistic periods.


Awesome looking forward to it Cool

Also just wanted to mention that Weather Report are a great Fusion band and one of my favorite non metal artists.
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chewie
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 6:28 pm

S.D. wrote:


Miles Davis basically needs to be considered on his own because of how many times he changed the direction of the music almost single-handedly.  



...... and how many bands sprouted from his band line-ups after he was done with that direction and moving into another?


Birth Of The Cool
   Miles Davis – trumpet (all)
   Kai Winding – trombone (January 1949)
   J. J. Johnson – trombone (April 1949, March 1950)
   Junior Collins – French horn (January 1949)
   Sandy Siegelstein – French horn (April 1949)
   Gunther Schuller – French horn (March 1950)
   Bill Barber – tuba (all)
   Lee Konitz – alto saxophone (all)
   Gerry Mulligan – baritone saxophone (all)
   Al Haig – piano (January 1949)
   John Lewis – piano (April 1949, March 1950)
   Joe Shulman – bass (January 1949)
   Nelson Boyd – bass (April 1949)
   Al McKibbon – bass (March 1950)
   Max Roach – drums (January 1949, March 1950)
   Kenny Clarke – drums (April 1949)
   Kenny Hagood – vocal ("Darn That Dream" only)


'Round About Midnight lineup:
Miles Davis – trumpet
John Coltrane – tenor saxophone
Red Garland – piano
Paul Chambers – bass
Philly Joe Jones – drums

Kind Of Blue lineup:
Miles Davis – trumpet (band leader)
Julian "Cannonball" Adderley – alto saxophone, except on "Blue in Green"
John Coltrane – tenor saxophone
Bill Evans – piano (except "Freddie Freeloader"), liner notes
Wynton Kelly – piano on "Freddie Freeloader"
Paul Chambers – double bass
Jimmy Cobb – drums

In A Silent Way
Miles Davis – trumpet
Wayne Shorter – soprano saxophone
John McLaughlin – electric guitar
Chick Corea – electric piano
Herbie Hancock – electric piano
Joe Zawinul – organ
Dave Holland – double bass
Tony Williams – drum


The Isle Of Wight lineup:
Miles Davis - trumpet
Gary Bartz - tenor saxophone, soprano saxophone
Chick Corea - electric piano
Keith Jarrett - electronic organ
Dave Holland - electric bass
Jack DeJohnette - drums
Airto Moreira - percussion, cuica

That's damn impressive!


You could explore Jazz just using Miles lineup offshoots and then go from there.
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chewie
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 6:46 pm

How are you on guitar players?
Do you have stuff by.......
Grant Green
Barney Kessel
Kenny Burrell
Wes Montgomery

Then there are the heavier guys like:
Al Dimeola
Larry Corryell (just picked up another album of his today)
John McLaughlin


I'm probably forgetting somebody........
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Thelemech
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri May 08, 2015 6:51 pm

I have heard of some of those guitar players but I do have a few albums by John McLaughlin.
One is called Electric Guitarist and the other is a greatest hits.
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Runicen
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Mon May 11, 2015 8:43 am

That condensed history of jazz was pretty incredible. I knew a number of those terms, but I had nothing to pin them on other than "real jazz fans seem to know what they mean."

Are there any good books or the like tracing the history of jazz as a primer?
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bassman
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Mon May 11, 2015 2:05 pm

Maynard Ferguson is a particular favorite of mine.....haven't seen him mentioned yet.
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Thelemech
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:49 pm

chewie wrote:
S.D. wrote:


Miles Davis basically needs to be considered on his own because of how many times he changed the direction of the music almost single-handedly.  



...... and how many bands sprouted from his band line-ups after he was done with that direction and moving into another?


Birth Of The Cool
   Miles Davis – trumpet (all)
   Kai Winding – trombone (January 1949)
   J. J. Johnson – trombone (April 1949, March 1950)
   Junior Collins – French horn (January 1949)
   Sandy Siegelstein – French horn (April 1949)
   Gunther Schuller – French horn (March 1950)
   Bill Barber – tuba (all)
   Lee Konitz – alto saxophone (all)
   Gerry Mulligan – baritone saxophone (all)
   Al Haig – piano (January 1949)
   John Lewis – piano (April 1949, March 1950)
   Joe Shulman – bass (January 1949)
   Nelson Boyd – bass (April 1949)
   Al McKibbon – bass (March 1950)
   Max Roach – drums (January 1949, March 1950)
   Kenny Clarke – drums (April 1949)
   Kenny Hagood – vocal ("Darn That Dream" only)


'Round About Midnight lineup:
Miles Davis – trumpet
John Coltrane – tenor saxophone
Red Garland – piano
Paul Chambers – bass
Philly Joe Jones – drums

Kind Of Blue lineup:
Miles Davis – trumpet (band leader)
Julian "Cannonball" Adderley – alto saxophone, except on "Blue in Green"
John Coltrane – tenor saxophone
Bill Evans – piano (except "Freddie Freeloader"), liner notes
Wynton Kelly – piano on "Freddie Freeloader"
Paul Chambers – double bass
Jimmy Cobb – drums

In A Silent Way
Miles Davis – trumpet
Wayne Shorter – soprano saxophone
John McLaughlin – electric guitar
Chick Corea – electric piano
Herbie Hancock – electric piano
Joe Zawinul – organ
Dave Holland – double bass
Tony Williams – drum


The Isle Of Wight lineup:
Miles Davis - trumpet
Gary Bartz - tenor saxophone, soprano saxophone
Chick Corea - electric piano
Keith Jarrett - electronic organ
Dave Holland - electric bass
Jack DeJohnette - drums
Airto Moreira - percussion, cuica

That's damn impressive!


You could explore Jazz just using Miles lineup offshoots and then go from there.


Wow - so many great artists listed here. You can definitely find some fantastic music searching these names, now I have a whole new pile of CDs to get!!! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:34 am

I also recommend doing some exploring by record label, they often have a unique character from one another and they generally had a stable of artists to choose from.

The big ones:

Blue Note - This label probably has the highest batting average of any of them. Pick any album released from the mid-50s thru the late 60s and you've got a real good chance it's a winner.

Prestige - In the late 50s this label specialized in large ensemble (sextet to nonet) jam sessions, and quartet albums featuring big-toned tenor players. In the late 60s they became the premier label for soul jazz, recording many of finest Hammond players, guitarists and funky jazz drummers.

Verve - This label was primarily really straight-ahead jazz usually featuring a stable of swing-era players who were brought in to record small group sessions. There are several great records by Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins (both separate and together) for example. Verve also did a lot of vocal records. They also dabbled in west coast jazz and there are some good albums by Lee Konitz, Jimmy Giuffre and others.

Impulse! - Coltrane almost single-handedly put Impulse! on the map when it debuted in the early 60s. The slogan for Impulse! was "The new wave of jazz is on Impulse!" and they were primarily focused on the NYC underground, giving artists pushing the boundaries a chance to be heard on record. So many killer albums during the 60s, many greats from Archie Shepp, Pharaoh Sanders, Marion Brown, Alice Coltrane and others.

Riverside - Riverside did a little of everything stylistically, but all of their albums are of high quality and generally were excellent recordings. Johnny Griffin, Wes Montgomery, Wynton Kelly, Thelonious Monk, Sonny Rollins and a plethora of other great artists recorded for the label.

There are many others of course but these are a good place to start. Plenty of discographies and recommendations online. Plus Spotify has some playlists for some of these labels which might make it easier to explore.
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MetalGuy71
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:15 am

Hey, SD, (or anyone else that has an opinion), what do you think of the Alex Skolnick Trio and their jazz interpretations of metal songs? Or their original compositions. I've read some reviews and some jazz purists (I assume) just seem to rip them to shreds. I recently picked one up for cheap and think it's pretty neat. I'm hardly an expert of the genre, but I like that they put a new spin on old classics.




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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:44 pm

I've heard some of their stuff, it's clever and probably appeals more to Skolnick fans who are dipping their toes into jazz more than it would jazz fans. The version of Don't Talk To Strangers is interesting. This is the kind of stuff I would enjoy seeing performed live, but if I was just in the mood to listen to some jazz doubtful I would reach for this. Nothing against Skolnick at all, there's just so many other great artists out there who devote 100% of their time to the art form.

The first time I heard Skolnick cover a jazz song was So What by Miles Davis. The problem was he didn't actually play it as a modal piece as written, he changed it to a straight blues progression. My problem with that was why play that particular piece at all, why not just play a blues? That's the kind of stuff that can irritate the jazz purists.
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:00 pm

Quote :
This is the kind of stuff I would enjoy seeing performed live, but if I was just in the mood to listen to some jazz doubtful I would reach for this. Nothing against Skolnick at all, there's just so many other great artists out there who devote 100% of their time to the art form.

Interesting. I can see your point. I don't how much regular play it will get from me either, but I'll mix it in with my jazz playlist at home. It fits in there well enough. And if it gets Skolnick fans or other metal heads interested in jazz (like me!), I don't see the problem in it. I guess I can see how it might rub some purists the wrong way though.

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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:05 pm

I personally have no problems with it and hey, I think it's great that Alex wanted to stretch out and do this stuff. I also agree that if him playing jazz opens up others to dip their toes in that's also a very good thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:23 am

Hell yeah!



Charlie Parker All-Stars with Miles Davis, 1947.

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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:09 pm

Here's John Mclaughlin's first album as a leader, recorded in 1969 in London right before he left for the States to join Miles Davis' band.  Stylistically the album is fusion though also tied to the late 60s post-bop scene.  Excellent album.  

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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:12 pm

i am a novice but i love jazz. All kinds of great stuff out there.

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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:30 pm

Still only occasionally dipping a toe into jazz waters, but discovering and digging Sun Ra at the moment.
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chewie
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:49 pm

There is some of the Free Jazz that I just can't get into. I had an Ornette Coleman album and there was this one song where it sounded like someone was sawing through a violin. On the other hand, I do enjoy John Coltrane's later Impulse work like Interstellar Space and Meditations. But at least I now know what my ears like and what they don't.
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Boris2008
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PostSubject: Re: Jazz   Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:57 pm

chewie wrote:
There is some of the Free Jazz that I just can't get into. I had an Ornette Coleman album and there was this one song where it sounded like someone was sawing through a violin. On the other hand, I do enjoy John Coltrane's later Impulse work like Interstellar Space and Meditations. But at least I now know what my ears like and what they don't.

I've tried listening to Ornette Coleman and found it hard going tbh. Maybe I just picked the wrong album.
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