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 Operation Mindcrime: The Key

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Runicen
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:17 pm

I don't want to take away from Todd-Ryche. It was an improvement over Dedicated to Chaos and the last few albums prior, but it was more like a coma patient waking up. He hasn't gotten back to running marathons yet, but the new signs of life were promising that it might get back to past glories.

Sadly, as it stands, if the whole album lives up to those samples, it seems like Tate might actually hit on some strong material of his own before Todd and the guys do, which seems karmically incorrect.
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Citanul
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:08 pm

Runicen wrote:
I don't want to take away from Todd-Ryche.  It was an improvement over Dedicated to Chaos and the last few albums prior, but it was more like a coma patient waking up.  He hasn't gotten back to running marathons yet, but the new signs of life were promising that it might get back to past glories.

They also could have been forced to release the album sooner than they would have liked, in response to FU. Given more time to work on it, they may have come with a better album.
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Shawn Of Fire
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:08 pm

Todd-Ryche sounds like a band that was influenced by Queensryche...but lacks all of the magic and intensity of the real Queensryche.

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Temple of Blood
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:21 pm

Sure, one factor might've been time pressure. But I have little faith in a guy (Wilton) who took, what, pretty much 15 years off from songwriting and let others write for him? That shows a complete lack of passion for his craft.
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Runicen
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:33 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:
Sure, one factor might've been time pressure.  But I have little faith in a guy (Wilton) who took, what, pretty much 15 years off from songwriting and let others write for him?  That shows a complete lack of passion for his craft.

That may be a little bit unfair. We only know bits and pieces of the jockeying Tate and co. did behind the scenes of the band to wrest almost full control of the music. Had Wilton been out shilling for a solo project, he might have been threatened with being sidelined in his own band. Granted, that happened anyway, but those dynamics set in over time before you realize how badly you're getting screwed.

Point being, I see why you'd say that, but I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt here and assume he was trying to save his ace material for QR, even though he was never really given the opportunity to use it.
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Temple of Blood
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:42 pm

If he had ace material we would've heard it on the last album.

A comeback is possible, but I give them a 10% chance. First step of fixing a problem is knowing that you have one. Do they even know how bad their previous album stank?
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Eyesore
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:42 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:
QR's last album proves that they need songwriting help desperately.  If they put out another album of that quality again all the hate for Geoff in the world won't save them from what is becoming blindingly obvious.  They are done as a creative force.

Wilton wrote QR songs that were saved by the vocals having to work twice as hard as he did.  The guitar riffs on their own tended to be a lot more generic than what DeGarmo wrote.  Totally agree that DeGarmo probably brought out the best in Tate.

I disagree completely. The last album proved that they should have been writing the music all along. I do think they rushed it a bit, trying to beat or match the release date of Tate's Frequency Unknown, but in no way does it show they are done as a creative force. For me the album highlighted all that was wrong with band, which was clearly Geoff Tate.

As for Wilton, to say those songs were saved only because Tate worked doubly hard is just being willfully foolish for argument's sake. Wilton not only solely wrote a number of their best songs, he wrote a lot more where Tate was the only other co-writer, which makes it easy to assume that Wilton was responsible for most if not all of the music.

He also co-wrote with DeGarmo countless other great Queensryche tunes. It's easy to assume Tate didn't co-write music because he's not solely credited on a single track in Queensryche's 30-year career, unless you count "Convict," an 8-second sound of shackles clanging together. But to assume that DeGarmo wrote most of the music for songs to which Wilton also contributed makes no sense.

Wilton's name is on just as many songs as DeGarmo's and Tate's. To exclude Wilton is ridiculous, especially when we know that he, unlike Tate, actually writes music.

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Last edited by Eyesore on Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eyesore
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:45 pm

Shawn Of Fire wrote:
Todd-Ryche sounds like a band that was influenced by Queensryche...but lacks all of the magic and intensity of the real Queensryche.

But Tate-Ryche didn't?

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Eyesore
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:46 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:
A comeback is possible, but I give them a 10% chance.  First step of fixing a problem is knowing that you have one.  Do they even know how bad their previous album stank?

Probably not. You know, since it didn't stink and the overwhelming majority agreed. Laughing

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Boris2008
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:07 pm

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Shawn Of Fire
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:15 pm

Eyesore wrote:
Shawn Of Fire wrote:
Todd-Ryche sounds like a band that was influenced by Queensryche...but lacks all of the magic and intensity of the real Queensryche.

But Tate-Ryche didn't?

Tate-Ryche had more moments that sounded like moody Queensryche because, in his lower range, Tate can still bring the intensity.

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corplhicks
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:46 pm

All of a sudden it feels like this thread should belong elsewhere...like Boris said...
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:50 pm

I'll stick to when he was relevant.
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Eyesore
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:21 pm

Painkiller wrote:
I'll stick to when he was relevant.


Guess who wrote that song!

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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:28 pm

Eyesore wrote:
Guess who wrote that song!
Yeah, Michael Wilton. I was mostly referring to Geoff Tate's once-powerful voice.
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:45 pm

Tate was 26 years old when Nightrider was recorded. He's now 56. People age and their voices change. Deal with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:49 pm

S.D. wrote:
Tate was 26 years old when Nightrider was recorded.  He's now 56.  People age and their voices change.  Deal with it.
I've already dealt with it, hence why I said I'll just stick to the albums that I like. lol!

I can name plenty of metal vocalists past or around his age who still sound or sounded just as good as they did in their prime, so that's a moot point.
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Shawn Of Fire
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:56 pm

S.D. wrote:
Tate was 26 years old when Nightrider was recorded.  He's now 56.  People age and their voices change.  Deal with it.  


headbanger

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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:19 pm

I was just listening to the new Armored Saint album a couple nights ago and marveling at how John Bush sounds basically the same now as he did 30 years ago. However...Bush is the type of singer who always stayed comfortably within his range, he was never pushing it to extremes, rarely went for the banshee-screams that many other metal vocalists with blown-out voices did. Because he just sang within his limitations instead of constantly trying to push them his voice has preserved amazingly well.

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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:30 pm

King Diamond's voice in recent times has actually improved, and everyone's aware of how insane he was during the early Mercyful Fate years. He can still hit many of those highs.

Ever check out Pagan Altar? Terry Jones almost made it to seventy, and yet he still sounded just as good as back in the early 1980s on Mythical & Magical.

John Arch, Bob Mitchell, Russ North, Brian Ross, Harry "The Tyrant" Conklin, and many others still sound great.
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Temple of Blood
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:54 pm

Eyesore wrote:
Guess who wrote that song!

And it just proves my point.
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Temple of Blood
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:55 pm

Painkiller wrote:
King Diamond's voice in recent times has actually improved, and everyone's aware of how insane he was during the early Mercyful Fate years. He can still hit many of those highs.

Ever check out Pagan Altar? Terry Jones almost made it to seventy, and yet he still sounded just as good as back in the early 1980s on Mythical & Magical.

John Arch, Bob Mitchell, Russ North, Brian Ross, Harry "The Tyrant" Conklin, and many others still sound great.

Yep. Plus Ski, Bruce Dickinson, Glenn Hughes, Joe Lynn Turner, etc.
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Temple of Blood
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:56 pm

Painkiller wrote:
Eyesore wrote:
Guess who wrote that song!
Yeah, Michael Wilton. I was mostly referring to Geoff Tate's once-powerful voice.

Yeah, because without that voice this song could've been one of 1000 power metal bands other forgotten tunes.
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:06 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:
Yeah, because without that voice this song could've been one of 1000 power metal bands other forgotten tunes.
Even aside from the voice, the riffs are great, speedy heavy metal. You don't have to be that innovative to be good, which is something that I think many people fail to grasp. I'd put the whole EP over any of their later albums, save for The Warning.
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Temple of Blood
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PostSubject: Re: Operation Mindcrime: The Key   Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:19 pm

You think it's great because you focus 95% on the vocals.  That's why you don't appreciate how good the backing music became on much of their later material.  Pretty much all you talk about is vocals.  Even before in this thread you said you were mostly referring to Tate's vocals. Be honest with yourself.

Fact is, the vocals made that song.  Put a mediocre singer on it and no one would care about it. That music is fine but a FAR CRY from "great".
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