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HeavyThrashhead
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:37 am

i won't consider Van Halen metal but i won't deny that Van Halen has some metal-esque songs and sure for the 1970's they were heavy.

now as far as the 70's having metal bands?, it did but it actually more in the underground than the upperground, sure Aerosmith has made some heavy songs (Rocks is for sure one of Aerosmith's heaviest records) but when you looked deeper you then find bands like Lucifer's Friend (at least the debut), Buffalo (the astralian band), Sir Lord Baltimore and so forth that were alot heavier making even Van Halen sound alot more Hard Rock than straight-up Heavy Metal.

just my two cents in this debate.

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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:11 am

Hec_The_Wreck wrote:
I saw VH back in 78 and nobody called them metal because the term wasn't even used till a few years later.

Maybe where you lived, I grew up in southern California and the term used as far back as 1973. The guy who gave me the first piece of my "Frankenstein" drum kit (A 26" maple Rogers kick drum) was in a "self professed" heavy metal band down the street called Arcane and that was in 1974.

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ultmetal
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:00 pm

Death Sentinel wrote:
Who the hell even called Van Halen metal?

People who were old enough to be there in 1978 and 1979. Periodicals that were printed at the time about the genre. Books on the history and evolution of the genre.

666_Evil_666 wrote:
Van Halen,
Ted Nugent
Aerosmith
KISS
AC/DC

are NOT metal, even the members will tell you that. It's hard rock.

You have the right to your wrong opinion. Black Sabbath also claims to not be heavy metal, doesn't make it true. Fact is all these bands were the metal bands of the 1970's. Again there could not have been a NEW WAVE of heavy metal in 1979 - 1983 if there wasn't a FIRST wave in the 70's.

Hec_The_Wreck wrote:
I saw VH back in 78 and nobody called them metal because the term wasn't even used till a few years later.

Well you might have seen them but the second half of your statement is totally untrue. Tons of periodicals from the time were talking about Heavy Metal.



I find it amusing that I can show history books on heavy metal, periodicals from the time, and testimony from those who lived the music in the 70's yet people will still come in an deny the obvious. I'm sorry, but if we were to take this to a court of law. who has the evidence on their side and who is spouting opinion?

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666_Evil_666
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:25 pm

ultmetal wrote:
Death Sentinel wrote:
Who the hell even called Van Halen metal?

People who were old enough to be there in 1978 and 1979. Periodicals that were printed at the time about the genre. Books on the history and evolution of the genre.

666_Evil_666 wrote:
Van Halen,
Ted Nugent
Aerosmith
KISS
AC/DC

are NOT metal, even the members will tell you that. It's hard rock.

You have the right to your wrong opinion. Black Sabbath also claims to not be heavy metal, doesn't make it true. Fact is all these bands were the metal bands of the 1970's. Again there could not have been a NEW WAVE of heavy metal in 1979 - 1983 if there wasn't a FIRST wave in the 70's.

Hec_The_Wreck wrote:
I saw VH back in 78 and nobody called them metal because the term wasn't even used till a few years later.

Well you might have seen them but the second half of your statement is totally untrue. Tons of periodicals from the time were talking about Heavy Metal.



I find it amusing that I can show history books on heavy metal, periodicals from the time, and testimony from those who lived the music in the 70's yet people will still come in an deny the obvious. I'm sorry, but if we were to take this to a court of law. who has the evidence on their side and who is spouting opinion?

When did Black Sabbath claim this? Heavy Metal wasn't even a popular term when they first hit, but they did claim it once it stuck to them. That's been a fact for many, MANY years.
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:02 pm

ultmetal wrote:
Death Sentinel wrote:
Who the hell even called Van Halen metal?

People who were old enough to be there in 1978 and 1979. Periodicals that were printed at the time about the genre. Books on the history and evolution of the genre.

666_Evil_666 wrote:
Van Halen,
Ted Nugent
Aerosmith
KISS
AC/DC

are NOT metal, even the members will tell you that. It's hard rock.

You have the right to your wrong opinion. Black Sabbath also claims to not be heavy metal, doesn't make it true. Fact is all these bands were the metal bands of the 1970's. Again there could not have been a NEW WAVE of heavy metal in 1979 - 1983 if there wasn't a FIRST wave in the 70's.

Hec_The_Wreck wrote:
I saw VH back in 78 and nobody called them metal because the term wasn't even used till a few years later.

Well you might have seen them but the second half of your statement is totally untrue. Tons of periodicals from the time were talking about Heavy Metal.



I find it amusing that I can show history books on heavy metal, periodicals from the time, and testimony from those who lived the music in the 70's yet people will still come in an deny the obvious. I'm sorry, but if we were to take this to a court of law. who has the evidence on their side and who is spouting opinion?

Do you have any sources to that claim? Just because a magazine calls them metal doesn't make them metal.
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brokentulsa
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:14 pm

I totally agree with everything that ultmetal said above... I was there and we called it all metal in the 70s... Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Deep Purple, Jimi Hendrix and even bands like Kiss and Slade and the Sweet we called heavy metal...the magazines and radio stations called it heavy metal and so did the promoters and record companies....so just curious 666_Evil_666 and Death Sentinel..where were you in the late 70s  Laughing



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666_Evil_666
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:19 pm

brokentulsa wrote:
I totally agree with everything that ultmetal said above... I was there and we called it all metal in the 70s... Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Deep Purple, Jimi Hendrix and even bands like Kiss and Slade and the Sweet we called heavy metal...the magazines and radio stations called it heavy metal and so did the promoters and record companies....so just curious 666_Evil_666 and Death Sentinel..where were you in the late 70s  Laughing




Does it matter where I was? or are you trying to play the metal elitist card.
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:20 pm

Quote :
Do you have any sources to that claim? Just because a magazine calls them metal doesn't make them metal.

So when do you think bands started being called heavy metal?...and what makes a band metal?
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:22 pm

Quote :

Does it matter where I was? or are you trying to play the metal elitist card.

Razz   I am just agreeing with ult.. "You have the right to your wrong opinion."
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666_Evil_666
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:25 pm

brokentulsa wrote:
Quote :
Do you have any sources to that claim? Just because a magazine calls them metal doesn't make them metal.

So when do you think bands started being called heavy metal?...and what makes a band metal?

Well it was first coined for bands like Blue Murder, and Black Sabbath, but I never once heard Sabbath deny that label. What makes a band metal? That's kind of a broad question wouldn't you say.
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666_Evil_666
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:26 pm

brokentulsa wrote:
Quote :

Does it matter where I was? or are you trying to play the metal elitist card.

Razz   I am just agreeing with ult.. "You have the right to your wrong opinion."

Meh, saying "You have the right to your wrong opinion" is a cop out to being a metal elitist. Opinions are opinions, if he disagrees that's fine, but the opinion isn't wrong in the end.
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:32 pm

666_Evil_666 wrote:
ultmetal wrote:
Death Sentinel wrote:
Who the hell even called Van Halen metal?

People who were old enough to be there in 1978 and 1979. Periodicals that were printed at the time about the genre. Books on the history and evolution of the genre.

666_Evil_666 wrote:
Van Halen,
Ted Nugent
Aerosmith
KISS
AC/DC

are NOT metal, even the members will tell you that. It's hard rock.

You have the right to your wrong opinion. Black Sabbath also claims to not be heavy metal, doesn't make it true. Fact is all these bands were the metal bands of the 1970's. Again there could not have been a NEW WAVE of heavy metal in 1979 - 1983 if there wasn't a FIRST wave in the 70's.

Hec_The_Wreck wrote:
I saw VH back in 78 and nobody called them metal because the term wasn't even used till a few years later.

Well you might have seen them but the second half of your statement is totally untrue. Tons of periodicals from the time were talking about Heavy Metal.



I find it amusing that I can show history books on heavy metal, periodicals from the time, and testimony from those who lived the music in the 70's yet people will still come in an deny the obvious. I'm sorry, but if we were to take this to a court of law. who has the evidence on their side and who is spouting opinion?

When did Black Sabbath claim this? Heavy Metal wasn't even a popular term when they first hit, but they did claim it once it stuck to them. That's been a fact for many, MANY years.

A fact for many, many years? Really? Have your read Iommi's autobiography? Black Sabbath have always claimed they were just a rock and roll band. Ozzy still says they were a rock band and not heavy metal. You have to remember that in the 70's "heavy metal" wasn't a revered term like it became in the 80's. Most bands denied they were heavy metal. To call a band heavy metal by a critic was almost an insult because it restricted you to a box, which 70's metal was not restricted to. Judas Priest was one of the few that actually took claim of the term 'heavy metal' in the 70's.

The point is, it doesn't matter what they claim or if the term was popular when the first hit. If the majority of fans at the inception of heavy metal in the 70's called these bands heavy metal, and the many history books on the genre call them metal, and even the periodicals of the time call them heavy metal, don't you think there is enough evidence there that perhaps bands like Black Sabbath, UFO, Van Halen, Aerosmith, KISS, Ted Nugent, Scorpions, Budgie, etc. were the heavy metal bands on the 70's?

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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:33 pm

brokentulsa wrote:
Quote :
Do you have any sources to that claim? Just because a magazine calls them metal doesn't make them metal.

So when do you think bands started being called heavy metal?...and what makes a band metal?

Like Hec_The_Wreck said, that term wasn't even in the 70s until few years later. You have any sources?
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:34 pm

Death Sentinel wrote:
ultmetal wrote:
Death Sentinel wrote:
Who the hell even called Van Halen metal?

People who were old enough to be there in 1978 and 1979. Periodicals that were printed at the time about the genre. Books on the history and evolution of the genre.

666_Evil_666 wrote:
Van Halen,
Ted Nugent
Aerosmith
KISS
AC/DC

are NOT metal, even the members will tell you that. It's hard rock.

You have the right to your wrong opinion. Black Sabbath also claims to not be heavy metal, doesn't make it true. Fact is all these bands were the metal bands of the 1970's. Again there could not have been a NEW WAVE of heavy metal in 1979 - 1983 if there wasn't a FIRST wave in the 70's.

Hec_The_Wreck wrote:
I saw VH back in 78 and nobody called them metal because the term wasn't even used till a few years later.

Well you might have seen them but the second half of your statement is totally untrue. Tons of periodicals from the time were talking about Heavy Metal.



I find it amusing that I can show history books on heavy metal, periodicals from the time, and testimony from those who lived the music in the 70's yet people will still come in an deny the obvious. I'm sorry, but if we were to take this to a court of law. who has the evidence on their side and who is spouting opinion?

Do you have any sources to that claim? Just because a magazine calls them metal doesn't make them metal.

Do I have any sources? TONS! I have printed history books on the History of Heavy Metal. I have TONS of magazines from the 70's (not just "a magazine") and I WAS THERE! I lived it. I was a metalhead in the late 70's and into the 80's. I wore a denim vest to school with Aerosmith wings painted on the back of it. Did you not see I posted several different magazines in this discussion?

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666_Evil_666
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:36 pm

ultmetal wrote:
666_Evil_666 wrote:
ultmetal wrote:
Death Sentinel wrote:
Who the hell even called Van Halen metal?

People who were old enough to be there in 1978 and 1979. Periodicals that were printed at the time about the genre. Books on the history and evolution of the genre.

666_Evil_666 wrote:
Van Halen,
Ted Nugent
Aerosmith
KISS
AC/DC

are NOT metal, even the members will tell you that. It's hard rock.

You have the right to your wrong opinion. Black Sabbath also claims to not be heavy metal, doesn't make it true. Fact is all these bands were the metal bands of the 1970's. Again there could not have been a NEW WAVE of heavy metal in 1979 - 1983 if there wasn't a FIRST wave in the 70's.

Hec_The_Wreck wrote:
I saw VH back in 78 and nobody called them metal because the term wasn't even used till a few years later.

Well you might have seen them but the second half of your statement is totally untrue. Tons of periodicals from the time were talking about Heavy Metal.



I find it amusing that I can show history books on heavy metal, periodicals from the time, and testimony from those who lived the music in the 70's yet people will still come in an deny the obvious. I'm sorry, but if we were to take this to a court of law. who has the evidence on their side and who is spouting opinion?

When did Black Sabbath claim this? Heavy Metal wasn't even a popular term when they first hit, but they did claim it once it stuck to them. That's been a fact for many, MANY years.

A fact for many, many years? Really? Have your read Iommi's autobiography? Black Sabbath have always claimed they were just a rock and roll band. Ozzy still says they were a rock band and not heavy metal. You have to remember that in the 70's "heavy metal"  wasn't a revered term like it became in the 80's. Most bands denied they were heavy metal. To call a band heavy metal by a critic was almost an insult because it restricted you to a box, which 70's metal was not restricted to. Judas Priest was one of the few that actually took claim of the term 'heavy metal' in the 70's.

The point is, it doesn't matter what they claim or if the term was popular when the first hit. If the majority of fans at the inception of heavy metal in the 70's called these bands heavy metal, and the many history books on the genre call them metal, and even the periodicals of the time call them heavy metal, don't you think there is enough evidence there that perhaps bands like Black Sabbath, UFO, Van Halen, Aerosmith, KISS, Ted Nugent, Scorpions, Budgie, etc. were the heavy metal bands on the 70's?

Lemmy said that Motorhead wasn't a metal band, when they clearly were. Sounds like you are just mad when bands like Van Halen, UFO, Aerosmith, AC/DC, KISS, Ted Nugent are just hard rock bands. I don't know why people get pissy eyed over that. It's not a slam at those bands, but they were just that, hard rock.

Were they heavy? For it's time, yes, but it wasn't metal. Not when bands like Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, and MANY bands people forget about were heavier.
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:37 pm

I WAS THERE EVERYONE, I GOT A DENIM JACKET

So you being there, and wearing a denim jacket with a patch means that we should all bow to you and take what you say as fact?
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:38 pm

Death Sentinel wrote:
brokentulsa wrote:
Quote :
Do you have any sources to that claim? Just because a magazine calls them metal doesn't make them metal.

So when do you think bands started being called heavy metal?...and what makes a band metal?

Like Hec_The_Wreck said, that term wasn't even in the 70s until few years later. You have any sources?

I have heavy metal compilations from 1974, on in particular that was called HEAVY METAL and included bands like Sabbath, Alice Cooper, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, etc. I'll grant you that the genre wasn't completely defined in '74, but it was a term that was being used. I have magazines from 1976, 77, 78, 79 talking about the "death of heavy metal", then I have magazines from 1980 talking about the "rebirth of heavy metal".

I'll say it again, there could not have been a NEW WAVE of heavy metal in the early 80's if there wasn't a FIRST WAVE in the 70's. The term was very common in the 70's. How do I know? I was there. I lived it and am still living it.

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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:40 pm

I got a Metal Church shirt everyone. I lived it...I live the Metal Church!
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:42 pm

Rolling Eyes



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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:47 pm

666_Evil_666 wrote:
brokentulsa wrote:
Quote :

Does it matter where I was? or are you trying to play the metal elitist card.

Razz   I am just agreeing with ult.. "You have the right to your wrong opinion."

Meh, saying "You have the right to your wrong opinion" is a cop out to being a metal elitist. Opinions are opinions, if he disagrees that's fine, but the opinion isn't wrong in the end.

I can say that I believe the South won the American Civil War, but that doesn't make my opinion right. The fact is, the Confederacy lost.

Same principle holds true here. In the 70's, the bands that were commonly called 'heavy metal' by fans, the media, critics, etc. were Aerosmith, Kiss, UFO, Ted Nugent, Scorpions, Thin Lizzy, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Budgie, etc. etc. There is plenty of evidence there if you care to look at it. You can argue all you want that they are not heavy metal, but if you truly study the history your opinion is not based on any solid arguments and it thus wrong. Shoot, even Wikipedia will back up the claims. It's not "elitism", it's just stone cold facts.


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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:48 pm

ultmetal wrote:
666_Evil_666 wrote:
brokentulsa wrote:
Quote :

Does it matter where I was? or are you trying to play the metal elitist card.

Razz   I am just agreeing with ult.. "You have the right to your wrong opinion."

Meh, saying "You have the right to your wrong opinion" is a cop out to being a metal elitist. Opinions are opinions, if he disagrees that's fine, but the opinion isn't wrong in the end.

I can say that I believe the South won the American Civil War, but that doesn't make my opinion right. The fact is, the Confederacy lost.

Same principle holds true here. In the 70's, the bands that were commonly called 'heavy metal' by fans, the media, critics, etc. were Aerosmith, Kiss, UFO, Ted Nugent, Scorpions, Thin Lizzy, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Budgie, etc. etc. There is plenty of evidence there if you care to look at it. You can argue all you want that they are not heavy metal, but if you truly study the history your opinion is not based on any solid arguments and it thus wrong. Shoot, even Wikipedia will back up the claims. It's not "elitism", it's just stone cold facts.


There is a difference between an OPINION...and a FACT. Not hard to figure that out.
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:52 pm

666_Evil_666 wrote:
I WAS THERE EVERYONE, I GOT A DENIM JACKET

So you being there, and wearing a denim jacket with a patch means that we should all bow to you and take what you say as fact?

I don't think I said anything of the nature about bowing to what I say as fact, My having lived it is only ONE of the pieces to the puzzle that I presented as evidence to my conclusion. You just like to pick and chose what you are reading.

I am not angry. I am trying to have a rational discussion about the music and it's history that I am very passionate about.

Look, believe what you want, but like I said, if we were to present our cases in a court of law, who has hard evidence to back their case and who is just saying, "in my opinion"?

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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:54 pm

ultmetal wrote:
666_Evil_666 wrote:
I WAS THERE EVERYONE, I GOT A DENIM JACKET

So you being there, and wearing a denim jacket with a patch means that we should all bow to you and take what you say as fact?

I don't think I said anything of the nature about bowing to what I say as fact, My having lived it is only ONE of the pieces to the puzzle that I presented as evidence to my conclusion. You just like to pick and chose what you are reading.

I am not angry. I am trying to have a rational discussion about the music and it's history that I am very passionate about.

Look, believe what you want, but like I said, if we were to present our cases in a court of law, who has hard evidence to back their case and who is just saying, "in my opinion"?

Alright, lets go to court? You do sound quite mad, and you are coming in with the "bow to me, I was there" line of bullshit lol. You might be able to fool everyone because you are a musician, but you won't fool me.
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:56 pm

ultmetal wrote:

Do I have any sources? TONS! I have printed history books on the History of Heavy Metal. I have TONS of magazines from the 70's (not just "a magazine") and I WAS THERE! I lived it. I was a metalhead in the late 70's and into the 80's. I wore a denim vest to school with Aerosmith wings painted on the back of it. Did you not see I posted several different magazines in this discussion?

Denim vest! Oh yeah! I'll bow down to you since you had a patched vest. *sarcasm*

i don't know, magazines are usually full of hype on a couple of things and so do books too.
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PostSubject: Re: Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:57 pm

Exactly, people will say shit in their book, then deny it, or change it the next, or they will say things for buyers. Look at that dumb broad Lita Ford.

Magazines are shit anyways and in this day and age many websites are just as shitty.
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